Ngl, I’m not a fan of Malthus but I have similar concerns about coming to a limit of population. What would be your suggestion on how to prevent ourselves from growing too rapidly? I don’t approve of the ways the oligarchs have come up with. And there are some places that have dangerous low level of new births. But population is now at 8bn. So now what?
I don't believe the population will grow exponentially, Nature is much smarter than we give her credit for. I think there's going to come a time (not in our lifetimes) when people are freaking because the population is in decline. Bit like climate fluctuations. I think we're about to hit a peak and then taper off. There's a lot of material out there suggesting such, but like the climate debate it's controversial (and personal). We're not taking into account that consciousness itself is going through a massive upgrade.
The last I read was that world population is expected to peak in 2050 (sounds like a nice round number to me probably without much science behind it).
I'm certain that nature will create a peak for us. We might want to consider if we want the brutality of nature imposing that peak or if maybe we should shift our attitudes and bring down our population ourselves in a manner we chose (not something tyrants impose on us or nature hits us with). Certainly my impression was that the population was too high, but much nicer in the 1960s when it was less than half the amount it is today.
It wasn't my intention to sound complacent about it and a friend of mine n his seventies reflects fondly on London in the 60s as being less manic, but politically and economically things were so, so different. And, of course, there was a lot of poverty about (not suggesting there isn't now btw, but probably less. We just get to see more of it.) I wouldn't oppose a voluntary reduction in population growth but my point was that nature will do. it and it may or may not be brutal. As the next ice age may or may not be. But I think futile attempts to change climate with ridiculous policies of net zero and blocking out the sun are a joke and global population control will be as risible as well until we address the inequalities of the world.
Yes, the "climate change" policies are a joke and completely ridiculous.
That's a good point, nature may not be brutal about curbing population. Partly it depends on what you call "nature". With large populations comes more poverty (in my opinion), poverty leads to crime, starvation/malnutrition and terrible living conditions (and thus population reduction).
If we say that 10% of the population lives in poverty, then if you double the population but the poverty rate stays the same you have twice as many people living in poverty. The World Bank defines poverty as living below $6.85 per day and in theory only 1% of the USA lives in that condition. I don't know about you, but I think most people would consider poverty as more like ten times that income (like $65 per day). We might find it hard to even agree on a definition of poverty, much less be able to accurately measure how many people live in such conditions (those tend to be the unknown / uncounted people).
Poverty to me is the inability to purchase (or harvest) healthy food. "Primitive" tribes live without money, but they can have a very good standard of living. I know people here that make over $30,000 a year but they can't afford to buy good food.
As for fond memories, what hammered population home to me was moving from my childhood of the Philadephia and New York area to the suburbs of Minneapolis / St. Paul. It was literally a breath of fresh air! A beautiful, modern city of moderate size with undeveloped suburbs. Fast forward forty years and I can't wait to get out of this obnoxious city!
£65 a day or dollars (my iPad doesn’t seem to have a dollar sign) maybe low but. I don’t consider it poverty. But that’s because I define poverty as not being able to afford to eat and that’s relative to a lot of other things such as accommodation
It seems to me that nature and current events are working hard at the moment to slow population growth.
Overall my recommendations are:
Education - teach people about the drawbacks of too large of a population, let that help influence their decisions about having children.
Education (nutrition) - If you are going to have a child, then get serious about getting healthy before conception so that the baby has the best opportunity to be healthy and intelligent and a boon to the population, not a burden.
Government - remove all tax benefits and incentives to having children. If you choose to have children, then it's up to you to afford them!
Pro-choice - let women have control over their own bodies.
Birth control - educate children about birth control and make it easily (and no cost) available to them.
Research - current methods of birth control range from pretty toxic to downright poor. We might want to focus on creating healthier and more effective forms of birth control.
Funding - I'm *not* an advocate of "foreign aid" but if we are going to send money to other nations, let's not fund wars, let's help them with their population problems. Asia has the most serious population problem, we might want to focus there!
Debate and open discussion - Let's talk about the subject. If someone is pro "booming population" let's hear the justification for why this would be a good thing. What are their solutions for the lack of limited resources?
Colonization - Mars seems like it's always been the most hopeful planet, but perhaps one of the moons of Jupiter or Saturn. Let's not abandon the idea of expanding to a new world.
Education (college courses) - Create some courses and encourage our young brilliant minds to discuss the issue and see if they can come up with some new solutions.
Wow, nice rundown. A few surprises here (colonizing other planets) but you won’t hear objections from me! I do think we need to start with talking about it openly and without vitriol. Let’s come up with some serious solutions. I think your whole comment could be a post, tbh.
Yes, this could be a post in itself. Maybe I'll copy, paste and elaborate. {smile} It is a topic we won't all agree upon, but it's important to discuss as already we have had tyrants (I don't like to call them leaders or elites) for the past one hundred years making decisions which amount to essentially flat out murder.
Ngl, I’m not a fan of Malthus but I have similar concerns about coming to a limit of population. What would be your suggestion on how to prevent ourselves from growing too rapidly? I don’t approve of the ways the oligarchs have come up with. And there are some places that have dangerous low level of new births. But population is now at 8bn. So now what?
I don't believe the population will grow exponentially, Nature is much smarter than we give her credit for. I think there's going to come a time (not in our lifetimes) when people are freaking because the population is in decline. Bit like climate fluctuations. I think we're about to hit a peak and then taper off. There's a lot of material out there suggesting such, but like the climate debate it's controversial (and personal). We're not taking into account that consciousness itself is going through a massive upgrade.
And that the creativity of humans can have exponential effects. 🤗
The last I read was that world population is expected to peak in 2050 (sounds like a nice round number to me probably without much science behind it).
I'm certain that nature will create a peak for us. We might want to consider if we want the brutality of nature imposing that peak or if maybe we should shift our attitudes and bring down our population ourselves in a manner we chose (not something tyrants impose on us or nature hits us with). Certainly my impression was that the population was too high, but much nicer in the 1960s when it was less than half the amount it is today.
It wasn't my intention to sound complacent about it and a friend of mine n his seventies reflects fondly on London in the 60s as being less manic, but politically and economically things were so, so different. And, of course, there was a lot of poverty about (not suggesting there isn't now btw, but probably less. We just get to see more of it.) I wouldn't oppose a voluntary reduction in population growth but my point was that nature will do. it and it may or may not be brutal. As the next ice age may or may not be. But I think futile attempts to change climate with ridiculous policies of net zero and blocking out the sun are a joke and global population control will be as risible as well until we address the inequalities of the world.
Yes, the "climate change" policies are a joke and completely ridiculous.
That's a good point, nature may not be brutal about curbing population. Partly it depends on what you call "nature". With large populations comes more poverty (in my opinion), poverty leads to crime, starvation/malnutrition and terrible living conditions (and thus population reduction).
If we say that 10% of the population lives in poverty, then if you double the population but the poverty rate stays the same you have twice as many people living in poverty. The World Bank defines poverty as living below $6.85 per day and in theory only 1% of the USA lives in that condition. I don't know about you, but I think most people would consider poverty as more like ten times that income (like $65 per day). We might find it hard to even agree on a definition of poverty, much less be able to accurately measure how many people live in such conditions (those tend to be the unknown / uncounted people).
Poverty to me is the inability to purchase (or harvest) healthy food. "Primitive" tribes live without money, but they can have a very good standard of living. I know people here that make over $30,000 a year but they can't afford to buy good food.
As for fond memories, what hammered population home to me was moving from my childhood of the Philadephia and New York area to the suburbs of Minneapolis / St. Paul. It was literally a breath of fresh air! A beautiful, modern city of moderate size with undeveloped suburbs. Fast forward forty years and I can't wait to get out of this obnoxious city!
£65 a day or dollars (my iPad doesn’t seem to have a dollar sign) maybe low but. I don’t consider it poverty. But that’s because I define poverty as not being able to afford to eat and that’s relative to a lot of other things such as accommodation
Money, budgets and priorities are quite fascinating. Very different from person to person!
It seems to me that nature and current events are working hard at the moment to slow population growth.
Overall my recommendations are:
Education - teach people about the drawbacks of too large of a population, let that help influence their decisions about having children.
Education (nutrition) - If you are going to have a child, then get serious about getting healthy before conception so that the baby has the best opportunity to be healthy and intelligent and a boon to the population, not a burden.
Government - remove all tax benefits and incentives to having children. If you choose to have children, then it's up to you to afford them!
Pro-choice - let women have control over their own bodies.
Birth control - educate children about birth control and make it easily (and no cost) available to them.
Research - current methods of birth control range from pretty toxic to downright poor. We might want to focus on creating healthier and more effective forms of birth control.
Funding - I'm *not* an advocate of "foreign aid" but if we are going to send money to other nations, let's not fund wars, let's help them with their population problems. Asia has the most serious population problem, we might want to focus there!
Debate and open discussion - Let's talk about the subject. If someone is pro "booming population" let's hear the justification for why this would be a good thing. What are their solutions for the lack of limited resources?
Colonization - Mars seems like it's always been the most hopeful planet, but perhaps one of the moons of Jupiter or Saturn. Let's not abandon the idea of expanding to a new world.
Education (college courses) - Create some courses and encourage our young brilliant minds to discuss the issue and see if they can come up with some new solutions.
Wow, nice rundown. A few surprises here (colonizing other planets) but you won’t hear objections from me! I do think we need to start with talking about it openly and without vitriol. Let’s come up with some serious solutions. I think your whole comment could be a post, tbh.
Yes, this could be a post in itself. Maybe I'll copy, paste and elaborate. {smile} It is a topic we won't all agree upon, but it's important to discuss as already we have had tyrants (I don't like to call them leaders or elites) for the past one hundred years making decisions which amount to essentially flat out murder.